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J Smooth

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PostSubject: Simple map 5   Mon May 06, 2013 1:47 pm

I don't think simple map five should be banned. I was playing on it yesterday for the first time against my cousin while he was Peppy and I was Fox. Even with him on the yellow blocks and having a missile launcher plus barrier I had no problem beating him. Why is it banned?
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HAXage
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PostSubject: Re: Simple map 5   Mon May 06, 2013 3:55 pm

the yellow blocks are really just secondary nowadays - the biggest problem with simp 5 is that it has three stealth packs and a terrible layout. it's like a simpler Titania (a stage i'm honestly considering for red status 1v1) with less cover: there's no reason to be anywhere but the top, it breeds camp games, and the most common score on it is 1-0 or 1-1. it's just not great gameplay.

the initial theory behind instituting a ban thanks to the yellow blocks was due to the fact that, like the cave on Sauria, they don't by themselves offer any supreme tactical advantage, but they can be used to delay games purposely by some characters. i admit it's kind of a tricky thing to argue - as are most things that warrant banning in SFA - but it does really go beyond something like Falc having an easier time on Katina than Pep.

the thing is that on simp5 there's really no reason to not play a camp game if you're Slip or Pep and that's what it comes down to: when a stage offers you something that seems intended to be gimped, it's time to think about whether that stage is really doing anything for the game.

of course, we can always test it. whenever anyone proposes anything - even just as a casual remark - my first response will always be "okay, let's try it out" Razz we'll discuss and debate it more in the next stage revision thread (whenever i happen to make one, that is...)
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J Smooth

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PostSubject: Re: Simple map 5   Mon May 06, 2013 5:10 pm

HAXage wrote:
the yellow blocks are really just secondary nowadays - the biggest problem with simp 5 is that it has three stealth packs and a terrible layout. it's like a simpler Titania (a stage i'm honestly considering for red status 1v1) with less cover: there's no reason to be anywhere but the top, it breeds camp games, and the most common score on it is 1-0 or 1-1. it's just not great gameplay.

the initial theory behind instituting a ban thanks to the yellow blocks was due to the fact that, like the cave on Sauria, they don't by themselves offer any supreme tactical advantage, but they can be used to delay games purposely by some characters. i admit it's kind of a tricky thing to argue - as are most things that warrant banning in SFA - but it does really go beyond something like Falc having an easier time on Katina than Pep.

the thing is that on simp5 there's really no reason to not play a camp game if you're Slip or Pep and that's what it comes down to: when a stage offers you something that seems intended to be gimped, it's time to think about whether that stage is really doing anything for the game.

of course, we can always test it. whenever anyone proposes anything - even just as a casual remark - my first response will always be "okay, let's try it out" Razz we'll discuss and debate it more in the next stage revision thread (whenever i happen to make one, that is...)
I think less cover is better because it requires more skill. As far as delaying a game goes, we play survival or point so that can't happen. And for yellow block camping I often just hurl grenades or hug the wall. But the three stealth suits I've never seen since we just started playing on the map not to long ago. Are they all on the map at one time?
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HAXage
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PostSubject: Re: Simple map 5   Mon May 06, 2013 8:21 pm

Jay Unstoppable wrote:
I think less cover is better because it requires more skill. As far as delaying a game goes, we play survival or point so that can't happen.


well, the lack of cover wasn't really my point, it was more the fact that it's basically the same stage as Titania (which itself is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in favour of camp playing styles). it basically says to the players that there's no point in being on the bottom levels because you have all the vantage points and defense you need on the top.

also, part of the reason why we gave up points games in favour of time games was that games like that 20-minute Titania game were in fact occurring with disturbing regularity. basically, the option was to let points games be at the mercy of slow playing styles, or waste a single game, draw at 1-1, and replay on a different stage, both of which would take five minutes flat... given the choice, it just made a lot more sense to ditch the gametype that had such a potential to be drawn out. this is also why Titania is still yellow (leftover from the points era) and why i think it really needs to be looked at now that the metagame has changed...

Quote :
And for yellow block camping I often just hurl grenades or hug the wall.

it's not that yellow block camping is a foolproof win method really, it's that if you're Pep or Slip, you don't need to go anywhere else. it makes for boring king-of-the-hill style games where all either player is trying to do is get on the yellow blocks and knock the other player off.

at least on, say, Fich or Ap there's a little bit of complexity to the inner/outer kind of gameplay; they're not perfect stages but Fich offers at least some incentive to be on either side of the control center walls at any time and the whole hearts-racing get-to-the-boiler gameplay that happens on Ap is kind of the whole reason why it's still a playable or popular stage. Simp5 just kind of... combines the worst of both worlds, and you end up with all the gravity-well mindset without the speed or intensity.

Quote :
But the three stealth suits I've never seen since we just started  playing on the map not to long ago. Are they all on the map at one time?

i believe there's only one pack on the stage at a time. worth noting that half the items on the map are stealth : P


Last edited by HAXage on Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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J Smooth

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PostSubject: Re: Simple map 5   Tue May 07, 2013 3:07 pm

HAXage wrote:
Jay Unstoppable wrote:
I think less cover is better because it requires more skill. As far as delaying a game goes, we play survival or point so that can't happen.


well, the lack of cover wasn't really my point, it was more the fact that it's basically the same stage as Titania (which itself is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in favour of camp playing styles). it basically says to the players that there's no point in being on the bottom levels because you have all the vantage points and defense you need on the top.

also, part of the reason why we gave up points games in favour of time games was that games like that 20-minute Titania game were in fact occurring with disturbing regularity. basically, the option was to let points games be at the mercy of slow playing styles, or waste a single game, draw at 1-1, and replay on a different stage, both of which would take five minutes flat... given the choice, it just made a lot more sense to ditch the gametype that had such a potential to be drawn out. this is also why Titania is still yellow (leftover from the points era) and why i think it really needs to be looked at now that the metagame has changed...

Quote :
And for yellow block camping I often just hurl grenades or hug the wall.

it's not that yellow block camping is a foolproof win method really, it's that if you're Pep or Slip, you don't need to go anywhere else. it makes for boring king-of-the-hill style games where all either player is trying to do is get on the yellow blocks and knock the other player off.

at least on, say, Fich or Ap there's a little bit of complexity to the inner/outer kind of gameplay; they're not perfect stages but Fich offers at least some incentive to be on either side of the control center walls at any time and the whole hearts-racing get-to-the-boiler gameplay that happens on Ap is kind of the whole reason why it's still a playable or popular stage. Simp5 just kind of... combines the worst of both worlds, and you end up with all the

Quote :
But the three stealth suits I've never seen since we just started playing on the map not to long ago. Are they all on the map at one time?

i believe there's only one pack on the stage at a time. worth noting that half the items on the map are stealth : P
I see what you mean but I'd consider putting it in the counter-pick list. And I know one stealth suit is on the top level, but where are the other two?
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HAXage
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PostSubject: Re: Simple map 5   Tue May 07, 2013 5:19 pm

one is on the green level and one is on the ground floor near the central pillar, i think (Strider4102 says "below northeast blue platform"). and yeah, i think SOMETHING here has to change; the way the metagame is right now, Titania is a bigger deal than Simp5 and is working just about the same way: big boring camp games and no one wants to play it any more.

so yeah, we'll discuss it in the stage revision list, which i think i'll start up right about now, actually
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PostSubject: Re: Simple map 5   Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:52 am

also, i thank you profusely for not wording your objections like this, Jay Razz

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J Smooth

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PostSubject: Re: Simple map 5   Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:21 am

HAXage wrote:
also, i thank you profusely for not wording your objections like this, Jay Razz

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lol! You're welcome, this person didn't even know that metagame doesn't include vehicles, what a shame.
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SfaFreak

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PostSubject: Re: Simple map 5   Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:44 am

Mechamaster makes a lot of no sense. Razz
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