Lylat Systems

The premier competitive Star Fox Assault group!
 
HomeFAQSearchRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
AuthorMessage
SfaFreak

avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2013-04-18
Location : Southern California

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:25 pm

This should be green no radar. Can't give you analysis, though

And yes, FalcoXII, you did use green, albeit a pale green. And so sorry you're colorblind. I can't imagine what that's like.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
J Smooth

avatar

Posts : 110
Join date : 2012-12-03
Age : 21
Location : Cleveland, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:51 am

HAXage wrote:
i don't think there is a terribly obvious character bias here (with the possible exception of Krystal; it is terribly hard to get into the control center without blowing a bar) so much as there's just... not much to the map. it's two spaces, an inside and an outside, and there's not much reason to go anywhere else, which means gameplay is more or less based around two chokepoints and some cover inside the center.

i guess it's probably the most balanced stage that i'd vote yellow on although to be honest i don't really have grounds for voting yellow. nobody really plays this stage full these days. the most recent game uploaded here was a tie between me and Cac KvS and there's a huge gap between that game and the next most recent.

so i guess it's up to anyone else to convince me what i should vote for this one now, lol. i have to admit i'd like some more green stages in the metagame right now and this one is the least suspect of all the current yellows, but the whole chokepoint play does mean you're going to be hitting B to make pushes a lot and it can be played rather campy. really the only thing stopping players from spending the whole game sitting in the center with CB pointed at the chokes is the missile spawn outside.

oh, and Jay, your idea of playing radar-less is kind of interesting although i don't think it should happen full Fich as it could make it very easy for someone to just get one point, run way out, hide in the ice fields and delay the game until it ends. however, it did give me an idea for CBF which i will bring up when we move on to that... (hint hint the idea is playing CBF radarless Razz)

I actually meant the fire burst pod, for some reason I always called it sonar, don't know why. Even so centerban radar less sounds nice


Last edited by Jay McCloud on Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
J Smooth

avatar

Posts : 110
Join date : 2012-12-03
Age : 21
Location : Cleveland, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:54 am

HAXage wrote:
on we go to CBF then, there's been plenty of time for people to get a foot in the door here

so i will admit that there is a bit of an issue with fast vs slow here in its current state; it's very even if PvS is on or FvK/X/F but the fact that the center is not transparent kind of puts a damper on the ability of any slow character to chase here. normally this hasn't been a problem considering the games we've had here so far: you need to see your opponent to get points, and people don't want to play camp games on an ARENA stage of all things anyway.

i have noticed some strange things happening in the final 30 seconds of the game when fast characters are up a point, though, and i don't particularly like that - the game should end when the 5 minutes are up, not at 4:30 because the fast character decides to not meet their opponent for the last few minutes of the game. in other words, it gives the fast character some sort of ability to influence when the end of the game actually comes, and that's not appropriate for competitive play. i can't cite any videos here because i'm sitting in a Starbucks and the connection is godawful so i can't load YT, but look up Ganon's game against Cac for third place at Kelowna 2012; Ganon fully and cheerfully admits that he's going to play like a chode in the last half minute or so and it works in his favor. other videos that might be worth checking out are HAXage vs Akp at Floss 1 and... hell if i know the actual game but i'm sure there's one more floating around out there.

the countermeasure to this is actually pretty simple, i think: turn off radar when playing CBF! this means that unless players see each other they will be unable to know the other's location, and if they can see each other they can shoot each other. i like this for a couple of reasons: first, it doesn't provide absolute assurance that this problem will be solved, but it puts a pretty big dent in the ability of a player to just bait Peppy around the center column forever without ever being in danger, and i think that's good. we do want characters to retain their individual abilities on this stage, or it's no good as a stage, right? so the overall mobility of Floxtal here is not really hurt; they just have to play a lot smarter than they previously had to in order to avoid getting shots put on them.

second, it prevents people from engaging others entirely on their own terms, which, although it's a big part of the metagame in bigger stages (let's face it, two players could just get lost looking for each other in Corneria), isn't as important in a stage this small. having no tricks to pull, pushing the game towards "who planned better and who aimed better", and being forced to make the best of a bad situation is, like, the whole point of having a stage like CBF!

so my proposal is GREEN with modification NO RADAR and i can thank Jay for this idea entirely; i think "you see it = you shoot it" is a much better way to play this stage and i'll try and get this into testing as soon as i get back to Vancouver.
I say yellow simply because faster character hugs the wall for cover better than slow ones in the event of a CB fight
Back to top Go down
View user profile
FalcoXII



Posts : 88
Join date : 2012-11-06
Age : 20
Location : The U.P.

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:41 pm

Slightly spammy, but I realized my mistake. When people hear colorblind, they normally think ability to see no color. I'm not fully colorblind. I can see color, I just have some difficulty distinguishing colors. Especially green. Sorry, I just wanted to clear that up.

I've said my peace about time/stock matches earlier, so I'm not going to repeat that. I think that as far as combat goes, the stage should be Green. Faster characters may be able to use cover more effectively, but that is one of the advantages of speed. I think that the quick charging blaster is just as advantageous. You're almost never going to be using other weapons.

So, unless someone can convince me otherwise, I remain Green for stock and Yellow for time.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Inferno9501

avatar

Posts : 13
Join date : 2013-06-20
Age : 22

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:51 pm

I agree with Falco on this one, this stage is pretty balanced for the most part.  The ability for a faster character to pull ahead and then spend the rest of the match off hiding in the snow drifts is pretty cheap, though, so I agree with stock green and time yellow.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
FalcoXII



Posts : 88
Join date : 2012-11-06
Age : 20
Location : The U.P.

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:55 pm

Shoot, Inferno, the name is wrong. We're currently discussing centerban. I'm pretty sure at least
Back to top Go down
View user profile
HAXage
Admin
avatar

Posts : 268
Join date : 2012-10-25
Location : Victoria, BC

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:25 pm

yeah, i forgot to change the title and everything, whoops Surprised

this is another one where we don't actually have many examples of slow vs fast simply by coincidence; nobody really wants to play a slow character vs Akp on any stage any more and i always end up taking STG or Cac to this stage, who pick Slip for the CB. Akp's game against me is pretty illuminating especially considering i actually ragequit four minutes in... i'll analyze it in a bit.

i do think this one is pretty even though. we've had pretty adequate demonstrations from numerous people that slow characters hold their own, and Akp has obviously proven the viability of Falc here... i think you just have to learn how to make your character's advantages work in a tighter space than usual.

F12, your suggestion for stock does interest me, although i don't know if it's fully necessary given the size of the stage and how we've seen things play out in the past. in this case, the basic advantage of stock seems to be that it forces people to make pushes if they want to make progress in the game, which puts a bit of a dent in the ability of fast characters to pick their battles so easily. however, on a stage this size, turning off radar might be all that's necessary to stop fast characters from pushing only when it's advantageous to them; on the other hand, it could backfire horribly and leave slower characters without any hiding capability, which i'd really like to avoid. honestly i think the only thing to do is test this one, and i'll try and get on that as soon as possible.

and honestly i have to agree with your skepticism surrounding time matches. it does seem to me that since we've switched to time we've seen a significant speeding up in the metagame... people still play the slower chars, but there's no denying it's a wholly different beast nowadays and seeing games like some of our old PvFs on Titania where Pep wins would be totally unheard of. on the other hand, time has proven pretty useful for us at least... but this is a topic for a different thread
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sfacorner.forumotion.net
FalcoXII



Posts : 88
Join date : 2012-11-06
Age : 20
Location : The U.P.

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:37 pm

The main problem I have with time matches is the margins of error. Slow characters must make fewer mistakes. Fast characters can recover from mistakes.
For example, if the fast character get's the first point, the fast character does not have to engage. They can run around, heal, collect weapons, etc. Even in the slow character kills him, the if stalling is successful, and sufficient weapons are gathered, they should be able to at least force the barrier. On the next point, they can have an advantageous battle and flee for the remainder of the match. (All theoretical)

From the vids I've seen, time didn't seem to be too much of a problem, but it jumped out at me on CB Fich
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Zerolink100

avatar

Posts : 26
Join date : 2013-03-12
Age : 22
Location : The Great Lakes State

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:47 am

FalcoXII wrote:
I've said my peace about time/stock matches earlier, so I'm not going to repeat that.
I think this should be brought back up in another thread after stage revision is done.
Quote :
Faster characters may be able to use cover more effectively, but that is one of the advantages of speed.
Seems true for most stages.
Quote :
I think that the quick charging blaster is just as advantageous. You're almost never going to be using other weapons.
Definetly good on this stage since there are rarely any other weapon pickups.
Haxage wrote:
nobody really wants to play a slow character vs Akp on any stage any more
After watching his falco I doubt anyone in their right mind would want to.
Quote :
on a stage this size, turning off radar might be all that's necessary to stop fast characters from pushing only when it's advantageous to them; on the other hand, it could backfire horribly and leave slower characters without any hiding capability, which i'd really like to avoid.
I can see this idea having potential, but radar is what keeps the game competetive on any stage. Blindly running around and hoping to find your opponent isn't that appealing to me and could eat up precious time with the time rule.

Overall there is a clear advantage to playing a faster character here and thats because you can control how the final point goes because of radar. Taking off radar on a stage this small might make the end result different but it could also lead to a lot of screen peaking. Having radar off on this stage while your opponent is comming in you wouldn't be able to tell which one they're comming from and that might get annoying if you can't charge and your opponent can while they're in the tunnel. I might be wrong on that statement but I am unsure on the specifics for when you can start charging.
Quote :
Akp's game against me is pretty illuminating especially considering i actually ragequit four minutes in...
And I totally think that grenade pickup was total BS for Akp seeing as how in plenty of matches before that others have passed that up.

Another thing I think is worth mentioning is that the faster character would be able to circle around faster. If radar is off and there isn't a lot of screen peaking then I think the faster character would be able to get behind the slower character more often and you wouldn't even know he was there until he shot.

With the option of reverting only this stage back to point this stage is all about mindgames and playing well.

My initial vote is green with radar and yellow without. Same goes for the stock option. I do think this one is worth testing though with the no radar option to see if it will work or not.

Did I have enough quotes in there or what? Rolling Eyes
Back to top Go down
View user profile
FalcoXII



Posts : 88
Join date : 2012-11-06
Age : 20
Location : The U.P.

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:17 pm

It's a hassle, and it probably won't be commonly used, but my best matches ever were no radar with a cardboard divider on the TV to hide the opponent's screen. With no radar and not being able to screen-look, the games were incredibly intense and fun. I like no radar, and I think it's definitely worth testing.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
J Smooth

avatar

Posts : 110
Join date : 2012-12-03
Age : 21
Location : Cleveland, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:54 pm

FalcoXII wrote:
It's a hassle, and it probably won't be commonly used, but my best matches ever were no radar with a cardboard divider on the TV to hide the opponent's screen. With no radar and not being able to screen-look, the games were incredibly intense and fun. I like no radar, and I think it's definitely worth testing.
Is it possible to screen look in normal tourney/metagame play?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
HAXage
Admin
avatar

Posts : 268
Join date : 2012-10-25
Location : Victoria, BC

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:32 pm

sure, in fact i'd argue it's part of the metagame at this point. i know there are people that are against it but i don't think it's really a replacement for the intuitive qualities of radar. certainly in our area hiding what you're doing from your opponent is a big part of the game
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sfacorner.forumotion.net
FalcoXII



Posts : 88
Join date : 2012-11-06
Age : 20
Location : The U.P.

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:26 pm

Whether or not it's legal, unless there's some divider, there's no way to enforce it. I don't normally, but sometimes I can't help it
Back to top Go down
View user profile
SfaFreak

avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2013-04-18
Location : Southern California

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:38 am

Another problem with time match on CBF is that when you die, you may spawn outside. When you spawn outside all play stops until you get inside. Now if plippy kills floxtal towards the end of the game to take the lead, floxtal can hurry back inside for a revenge kill to tie it back up, just in time. If the reverse happens though, floxtal killing plippy to take the lead, plippy might run out of time while trying to get inside.(Remember the time does not pause while you try and run inside)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
FalcoXII



Posts : 88
Join date : 2012-11-06
Age : 20
Location : The U.P.

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:14 pm

That's my biggest problem with time on this stage. Time ticking while the rest of the match is paused. And if someone walks the wrong way from an outside spawn, they have to walk all the way to the other doorway. I think that this alone is enough tilt to fast characters to make it Yellow. But I do think that other than the issues with time, it should be Green.

Man... Who'd have thought that we'd have so much discussion on Centerban Fichina with only six or so contributors?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
FalcoXII



Posts : 88
Join date : 2012-11-06
Age : 20
Location : The U.P.

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:24 pm

Alright, I did some testing. I played a 5-minute as Peppy against Krystal. Although the fighting was pretty even, my brother was able to gimp with speed. He could make my barriers useless by staying on the other side of the central pillar, and I ended up losing because of speed gimping.

Also, from the common spawn of outside facing away from the entrance, Peppy takes ~12 seconds, and Krystal ~8 to get back inside. Slippy is probably ~10, and Falco ~6. 4-6 seconds is a huge difference in a last minute situation, and when I died with less than 20 seconds left, I had no chance. Even though I only needed one RCB. He had no barrier. I lost 3-4.

Falco/Peppy would be even worse, and I think even Krystal/Peppy is bad enough. My testing confirmed my worries, and I'm definitely voting Yellow unless it's stock. I encourage a switch to stock on most stages. Even as few as 3 lives. Or variable. It could even be set by stage.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
HAXage
Admin
avatar

Posts : 268
Join date : 2012-10-25
Location : Victoria, BC

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:35 pm

that's fairly compelling, especially when you consider the time it takes to get back inside after dying...

was this tested with radar off?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sfacorner.forumotion.net
FalcoXII



Posts : 88
Join date : 2012-11-06
Age : 20
Location : The U.P.

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:11 am

Radar on. Radar off would be better I believe. The faster character wouldn't be able to hide behind the center pillar as well. I'll see if I can test it without radar.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
SfaFreak

avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2013-04-18
Location : Southern California

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:35 am

I play point, rather than survival. I only have two controllers, so survival VS point dosen't make a difference, and point is default. And since I hate time matches, I don't play time.(Unless I'm testing something where time matters, like character matchups on certain stages)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
FalcoXII



Posts : 88
Join date : 2012-11-06
Age : 20
Location : The U.P.

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:25 pm

I'm wondering if we should move on to another stage. I think there needs to be some testing before a final decision is made, and I'm not sure how much ability to test we have right now. It takes some convincing to get my brother to agree to even a little testing. I think we should make a tentative decision now, and continue discussion after we've allotted time for testing. If so, my vote goes to Yellow. I don't think we should change rules for one stage, and so I think for now it should remain as time with radar on.

Oh, god... If we change rules back to point, we'll have to have our 5th stage revision thread soon...
Back to top Go down
View user profile
HAXage
Admin
avatar

Posts : 268
Join date : 2012-10-25
Location : Victoria, BC

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:53 pm

i have to say i have pretty considerably strong reservations about allowing this stage to exist yellow at all; the whole point of it is that it's an arena stage, there's no jack or funny stuff to worry about, you just CB and exploit cover until one of you wins. so until we can come up with a way to play this that we all can agree is green - because i think it's pretty obvious that the dissent here is justified regarding fast/slow character matchups in time games, at the very least - we should probably just leave it for now and move on to Saur. i'm still interested in running a few no-radar time and/or stock matches myself, so we will return to this later.

and i seriously doubt we'd switch back to stock now; time has worked well in a lot of ways for us at least although there's no denying it has changed the metagame considerably and i understand that it warrants some inspection. in the future we might look into players choosing what mode they want to play or something similar, but i'll bring that up in another thread sometime.

one more thing - i'd just like to thank all you guys profusely for your continuing discussion and interest in this thread; i had really been worrying that the death of the old forum was going to be the death of competitive SFA but everyone here is happily proving me wrong. keep it up, i much appreciate it!

so Sauria it is at this point - this stage is currently yellow 1v1 and green 3p/4p (i believe? it works fairly well in that scenario anyway). thoughts?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sfacorner.forumotion.net
FalcoXII



Posts : 88
Join date : 2012-11-06
Age : 20
Location : The U.P.

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:08 pm

I really don't know much about Sauria. I haven't played on it too much. From the vids I've seen, I think that it should probably be Yellow. It appears to be a stage that's biased towards faster characters, but not hugely so.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
SfaFreak

avatar

Posts : 105
Join date : 2013-04-18
Location : Southern California

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:23 pm

Definetly yellow, no cave in 1v1; however, 3p, 2v2, and FFA's could be different. scratch
Back to top Go down
View user profile
HAXage
Admin
avatar

Posts : 268
Join date : 2012-10-25
Location : Victoria, BC

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:31 pm

yeah Saur's yellowed status in 1v1 has been pretty evident for a while i think. the way it's set up means you're either on open ground or unhittable which right away gives the slow chars incentive to play camp games and gives the fast chars something to "exploit" in the vein of simp2.

this match [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might be the only one inclined to raise any objections but i don't think it's a particularly strong argument against fast character weapon runs here; the way Yosh plays this stage is really quite masterful in the angles he pushes from, the places he has sight on, and the damage he outputs that makes his opponents unwary to even break cover from across the map. this was also filmed when nobody really knew how to not play Yosh's game and avoid being drawn into the high ground CB fights; STG gets absolutely no weapon pickups being cut off, pinned behind cover, and shot from across the map. nowadays, it's easier to see where the opportunities to exploit speed on this stage could have come in (and STG's Falc has never really shone in duels outside of simp1 anyway, where, to be fair, it's extremely scary).

Whaleu's game here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] presents a really cool job of combatting fast players although his first revenge kill is total jack: contest your opponent for weapon spawns particularly HL and push from cover, never open ground. he still loses mainly because of his approach to the last point where the aforementioned advice goes out the window, and outright escaping your faster opponent is a real pain on this stage since the terrain is such a bitch to navigate. this is a really great game, sure, but it contributes to the now fairly significant Falco winrate here and Akp wins some points pretty much entirely due to his speed: he shouldn't have won the first point really, pushing that aggressively against an HL and taking two hits, and the hit-and-run game against Whaleu's three bars (!) for the second point is amplified considerably by the terrain and high ground he's allowed to take just by virtue of being that fast.

will look at some 3/4p games shortly...
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://sfacorner.forumotion.net
J Smooth

avatar

Posts : 110
Join date : 2012-12-03
Age : 21
Location : Cleveland, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:07 pm

HAXage wrote:
i have to say i have pretty considerably strong reservations about allowing this stage to exist yellow at all; the whole point of it is that it's an arena stage, there's no jack or funny stuff to worry about, you just CB and exploit cover until one of you wins. so until we can come up with a way to play this that we all can agree is green - because i think it's pretty obvious that the dissent here is justified regarding fast/slow character matchups in time games, at the very least - we should probably just leave it for now and move on to Saur. i'm still interested in running a few no-radar time and/or stock matches myself, so we will return to this later.

and i seriously doubt we'd switch back to stock now; time has worked well in a lot of ways for us at least although there's no denying it has changed the metagame considerably and i understand that it warrants some inspection. in the future we might look into players choosing what mode they want to play or something similar, but i'll bring that up in another thread sometime.

one more thing - i'd just like to thank all you guys profusely for your continuing discussion and interest in this thread; i had really been worrying that the death of the old forum was going to be the death of competitive SFA but everyone here is happily proving me wrong. keep it up, i much appreciate it!

so Sauria it is at this point - this stage is currently yellow 1v1 and green 3p/4p (i believe? it works fairly well in that scenario anyway). thoughts?
Green in 1 on 1, no cave in time matches. Green in 2 on 2 and in FFA's. There is plenty of cover and speed doesn't make much of a difference unless someone is hiding in a pyramid, invisible or is moving through the water (which drops speed by at least a star or two).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   

Back to top Go down
 
STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 5 of 10Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Wood Elf 2250 Final revision....remarks PLEASE!!!
» Best Fight Thread!
» Funny Fights Thread!
» NECA Toy Fair 2011 reveal thread
» Eternal Dream Official "LOL Pictures" Thread

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Lylat Systems :: Great Fox-
Jump to: