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 STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)

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FalcoXII



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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:54 pm

I can agree with Yellow for 2v2/FFA. I agree that it would be too small to be balanced with 4p
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:17 pm

ok fuck yeah red ap rejoice

I honestly don't mind it being yellow or even green for 2v2 or ffa

we should totally do a 2v2 tourney or sets when you're out

a long time ago ganon and i tried to use some meta strats and then we'd try them on others but we'd win because our opponents were just worse and Whaleu is a teamkiller

But I'd say as far as Simp3 goes, RED for 2v2 FFA, its really easy to grab an invis and DS and pick of people in the chaos

and its harder to KS with the HL like I normally do in FFA's
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:30 am

STG wrote:
ok fuck yeah red ap rejoice
er, shit, i meant titania Laughing Ap's still yellow 1v1

yeah i've been thinking next tourney should be doubles, it's fun if you can organize teams well enough

anyway we honestly don't play enough FFAs for me to vote red. we tend to avoid this stage 4p anyway (i don't have any vids of it at all, i think) and calling red in that circumstance is kind of a mountain/molehill deal. huge sprees can (and do) happen at any time; i don't think they totally ruin the game especially since FFA tourneys usually introduce some incentive to be in second/third place. for me to vote red FFA i'd say the game just has to be rendered completely stupid a la simp5, not just because it caters to someone savvy enough to play a fast character and run items. i mean that's what yellow is for
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:36 am

titania is less broken than ap its just bigger -_-

like at least there's cover for missile fire and the booster packs to get yourself to the high zone quicker, if you die first on ap, and you get a shit spawn, its pretty much 2-0 already

regardless we should test like all the stages ffa (cb fich gogogogo)

also has full fich been made red yet? IIRC Cac picked it in a tournament when I totally thought it was red
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:58 am

lol just look at the first post in this thread, it has all the current stage statuses

anyway we need to move on and try and wrap this topic up, and the next stage happens to be CBF which i'm anxious to get back to... any objections from anyone for simp3 green 1v1 and yellow 2v2/FFA need to be aired right now.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:16 pm

No objections from me - to be honest it's far better to have a yellow for this stage than a red because I think this stage could well be Green 2v2/FFA, or at least FFA, and for the same reason that Ap is green FFA - it's a lot harder to keep a strong position when 3 others will be contesting for it.

The map design on Simp3 is obviously biased towards he who controls the top floor because of two easy chokes for entrances and a fantastic sniping position with the huge hole in the centre. However, there are two ways to counterbalance this.

1 - Thanks to the fact that the holes (there are two, top and middle) are slightly spread in that there is a small section of the middle floor that you can fall onto from above, punishing campers is a lot easier than on a map where holes go straight down. Grenades are the easiest way to do so, but even without cooking one fully you can just throw it up there to force the enemy to change position and put yourself at an advantage.

2 - One of the entrances to the top floor has a very useful hiding spot - whereas with the other entrance the wall protecting you from your right vanishes entirely when you reach the third floor, with this entrance the wall cover remains with you. This not only gives an element of surprise to your assault, but also there is no roof to this map that is within reach, therefore meaning grenades can be tossed over the wall. With some good aim and timing you can activate knockback on your enemy, giving you a nice timeframe to run into the center of the top floor and begin contesting it.

In addition, the player who gets to the top floor first can actually be in a worse position than the others who are lower down. This is because of the wonderful remote mines, which when placed correctly force your opponent to be extremely careful when walking around the map. Why is this giving an advantage to the players on the lower levels, you ask? Simply, it's because of the map's design. The only corners you will turn are when going up stairs, and these are often not the place where fights take place, especially if the top-level players want to assert their dominance king-of-the-hill style. Corners are the best place to put remote mines as they take players turning them off guard with a large burst of damage.

Obviously the link has been made to why remote mines are placed on the corners where you go up stairs. "Again, this isn't why the lower-level players are in better positions" - but it is. Placing mines on stairs means that the lower-level players control the bottom two floors of the map, a substantial lead in relation to one measly floor for third-floor players. Of course, the top floor has more bonuses with high ground advantages but in terms of overall map control, the lower-level players win. And should by chance these players get a kill on one of the top-floor players, they have a 4/7 chance of spawning on the lower levels.

This then becomes a lead for the lower-level players. For example, a Falco has just died to some nice grenades by the mid-level Krystal and Fox, and wants to rejoin his Peppy teammate on the top floor. If he's not careful, he'll lose half his life to a remote mine when going up the stairs to get there, and that's if he can get anywhere near the stairs, with 2 enemies on his back and ready for him to make any sort of mistake.

Falco's teammate sees what a mess he's gotten into and decides to jump down through and help, but Falco's made a blunder and blown up one of the remote mines. Fox is preparing an RCB to finish him off, but the destruction of the mine has given him quicker and easier access to the higher floor(s). He gets the kill on Falco, and Falco respawns on the bottom floor with nobody else with him. Krystal's been manfighting Peppy and has got him down to low HP. Fox can now come in and finish the job. With this now humongous lead, the team can make a decision - go topside, or just keep control on the lower levels and hope the RNG favours them.

As with my other posts and analyses of possible games this is PURELY THEORETICAL and will likely not happen due to different playstyles, but the point still stands - there is still an advantage in control of the lower levels.

Otherwise, I'd say the decisions are fine.

QUICK EDIT TIME: I'm leaving for Holland tomorrow morning so unless I'm lucky I'll be gone for 1 whole week. Hope you guys can survive that long without my awesomeness.


Last edited by ThatLunaticFeline on Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:41 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Woops i made a mistake)
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:19 pm

Yeah i think we should just try 4 players on simp3, it hasn't like ever been done except in a 1v3 with high handicap wolf i think

also know what would be SUPER COOL?

if you could link the start of the stage discussions in the op

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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:32 pm

What does RTG mean, TLF?

Edit: Geez, how did I make the mistake of putting RTG instead of RNG. lol


Last edited by sfafreak on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:55 pm

assuming you meant RNG; it stands for random number generator. in this case he's talking about the spawns of players and spawns of weapons. basically it refers to any element that's out of your control as a player and up to a "random" number generated by the game
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FalcoXII



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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:38 pm

I think we're in consensus about Simp3. I think we should move on.

Also, I'm not sure who knows this. If someone is standing on or near a spawn point, that is not a valid spawn point. Not sure if this could be abused by teams or even singles in any way, but I want to throw it out there. (I haven't tested how close you have to be, it'd be a pain. I probably will now that I say it though)
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:51 pm

alright, we're on to CBF

the idea here is to get something that everybody agrees is green, since the whole point of having this stage is to have an even arena stage where things can just play out point for point; if it's yellow there's not much point in having it.

one problem is that with total awareness of the opponent's location, a faster character can theoretically keep the center pillar between him and a slower opponent indefinitely. time shouldn't be able to be wasted here by anyone, basically

there are a couple options to alleviate this if not completely fix it: 1. disable the radar 2. points mode. i prefer the first one; Cac and i tested it briefly and it seems to make PvF a little easier on Pep and i don't want to go back to points if we don't have to. F12 (i believe) pointed out that time mode wastes a lot of a slower character's time since after they die and there's a lot less likelihood that a slower character can get a clutch last point if they die with 30 seconds left; i think this is a pretty good point
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:43 am

i think centerban stages take away a lot of what the other stages have (which i guess isn't a terrible thing) but like, if you get an early HL, it makes it living hell for the other player, its like a guarenteed firstpoint if you play it right and at least a barrier on the second one

it should be yellow at least because i hate it its just not a very good stage all and all. camping the post isn't even that hard for like Slippy vs. Floxtal, or Floxtal vs. Falco, and while you can say its good manners not do do it, its totally different when you're playing in a 1 point up scenerio in a big game (which should never be on CBF but thats besides the point_
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:11 am

I would vote green with radar off or points. Without one of those I'm voting yellow. We've had this discussion before.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:55 am

HAXage wrote:
1. disable the radar 2. points mode. i prefer the first one; Cac and i tested it briefly and it seems to make PvF a little easier on Pep and i don't want to go back to points if we don't have to.
If it made it easier on slower guys then I say go with that rule and make that green.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:24 pm

BOO

I got lucky. I won't be able to post anything massive as I'm typing on my 3ds which is a massive pain, but I can summarize my thoughts on the topic at least.

I don't like the concept of centerban at all, but I think it is a good idea as it broadens the stage pool nicely. My main problem with it is the fact that that it favours the character who gets the items first... but as this is the same for all CB maps this shouldn't cloud my judgement.

Basically, green for all. Players understand how CB works and should play to suit the game, and as Fichina has awesome places to hide behind/roll around there is only one argument against this map - spawncamping is easier here than Corneria.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:11 pm

STG wrote:
early HL
i have to admit that the emphasis on cranking out a first point is kind of troubling because it demonstrates how point-for-point games on this stage are: the player with the first point generally either draws or wins the game. the only thing stopping me from admitting that this stage isn't any good to have around is the fact that in the scenarios where it's not point-for-point, when a player screws up it is not because the stage dealt them a bad hand but because they made a mistake.

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here's a pretty prominent game that did not go down point for point, and you can trace Cac's loss to a single mistake he made after Ganon's first point: he died with barrier unused. happens to everyone, but not very often to Cac; he'll be the first to tell you that having the reflexes and wisdom to bar at the right time is part of your skill, and if you died with bar it was no one's fault but your own.

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this is a game that deals somewhat with the "first HL grab" problem; i manage to take HL and trade BCB/RCB with Cac, and put some good damage on him. he gets too close after hitstunning me at one point and that puts us both in the ~4 health range; at this point we both back off and he circles. i can't push him without some danger of being CB'd, so i try to bait him by jumping over the ledge, but it doesn't work and he CBs me out.

did having HL give me a sizeable advantage? absolutely; look at Slippy's health compared to Pep's and look how much of it Cac lost in the opening fight. did it guarantee me a point? evidently not! you can say "well, hax screwed up and didn't use HL well enough, that's why he lost the point" and you'd be completely right - but saying that isn't any different from saying on Sarg or Katina or any other green stage "player X screwed up and didn't CB well enough/missile well enough/GG well enough".

let's look at the rest of the game: i get a fast revenge from ghost UCB and Cac's next point doesn't go so well since he didn't manage to put any damage on me. he pops bar too early and pushes a little too much and catches one too many RCBs as a result, although he does manage to put one on me. from there it plays out point for point. although Cac's mistake here is a little more nebulous, it's no less his responsibility. if i had to pin it down to one single mistake, it was that he was incautious after taking that first RCB; instead of pushing from behind cover of the wall he just ran at me.

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one more... this is the most lopsided CBF match we have, and it's pretty badly played on my part: Akp's second point is a fash and i accidentally hit B while on my way back in which paves the way for another point although i do force Akp's bar. note that he picked up HL before my first point although it didn't do him any good; i manage to RCB him out before he can use them. Akp's fourth point is AGAIN a fash with nades no less and he manages to go on to use them with great effect forcing my bar WAY too early and bringing it up to 5-2 without taking any damage. i take a nade and a few UCBs which brings my total fash count up to THREE after killing Akp with bar once. i ragequit fifteen seconds into the last point lol

what was the overriding issue here - why did i lose so badly? it sure wasn't due to Akp's speed allowing him to camp; there weren't any points where he wasn't totally in my face all the time. no, i was just unprepared and flustered and i forgot to barrier three times (and wasted one as well). that's basically four potential points down the drain. Akp caught a lucky break with the nade spawn but anyone can collect them; they're just not often taken by the slower players coming back into the base.

overall, i think the more pertinent issue on this map is barrier use, and when players screw up with their barriers it often costs them the whole match.

i think this stage serves well enough as intended: an arena stage where you and your opponent are looking for the slightest opportunities to punish each other, the mildest chinks in each others' armor. often, with really good defensive games, only one mistake happens per game - this is why we have so many point-for-point games. sometimes all the flaws in someone's game are exposed all at once, as with my game vs Akp.

i do think disabling radar for time games is a good idea though; it eliminates a lot of stalematey situations and prevents faster characters from having total map control (which shouldn't even be an issue here since the map is too small to warrant any kind of questions about control).
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:14 pm

the first item grab seems to be an issue for plenty of people so i'd just like to point out that slow characters are not really given the shaft in the weapon-grabbing game on this stage, barring some seriously awful spawns: in most cases characters are more or less equidistant to the weapons and the slow characters are given some great tools to keep their opponents off those weapons.

moreover if you spawn on the other side of an HL and your opponent spawns right next to it - well, shit, that can happen on any stage, can't it?
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:52 am

I agree with the idea that this map punishes mistakes hard - it's the fact that because it's such a small map it's forcing constant engagements, and if you want to play a passive game then it's impossible. Unlike Zoness which is also tiny, there isn't anything to get in the way of plenty of fights, so that's why one mistake is infinitely more punishable. I still believe it could work as green, however.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:37 am

I think some of you have heard my complaint with the stage as it is, but for those who haven't, I figure it's worth saying:

With radar and time matches, a faster character can keep the center pillar between him and a slower character. In this particular stage, you really can't collect the weapons you need to counter this. If you're extremely lucky, you may have grenades or a pod, the only things in this situation that could force them away from it. You could say the same about any stage:
"Why can't this be done Katina? A faster character can keep a much larger pillar between him and his opponent. Or even any stage where a fast character takes the first point and runs"
This is a valid point, but the stages allow you to have a chance to counter it. On Katina, a trio of missiles are plenty to smoke them out. If they're making a run for it, there's always a chance for that clutch snipe that brings them back in. But on CBFich, there's nothing for that.

I'm fine with no radar for green.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:46 am

CBF doesn't really have any bias except a faster character can get to items quicker since they're so spread out. For example ML, barrier, jetpack and stealth. So if the match isn't point or survival I say yellow, if so then green.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:02 pm

I dunno screenpeeking is almost as good as a radar here, although I've not done it without radar so I can't really say for sure.  It's a yellow stage at worst though, and best in my mind.  

When is full Fich going to be red? It's a far worse stage than Titania, or even like dare I say it Aparoid.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:06 am

WASSUP? Back from 'oliday, and got a torn ligament in my right hand so no GameCube for me Sad

I can still type though! We still discussing CBF? Have things really been that slow while I've been gone? Ppftftff.

I'll just re-state my opinion of this stage. I don't like CB's concept but I think it works well on this stage cause the center has some nice design. I agree that deliberately avoiding somebody is definitely possible if you're faster but I doubt that this will be the case in real matches. BUT THEN I DON'T PLAY THOUGH DO I DAMN

So I don't really have any qualms about making this yellow or whatever.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:39 pm

well, i tried to test this without radar during kelowna 2013 but no one wanted to friggin' do it for some reason, so

i suppose having this yellow only means it won't be randomed as a first-round pick any more; people will only pick it to get a heads up on their opponent, and honestly i suppose i'm okay with that although the idea of an arena stage like this not being green is really weird and doesn't sit too well with me. other people have said yellow as is though so i'm kind of outgunned here.

i'll leave the discussion open to hear what people think about knocking this one out of the first-game selections, but it'll probably end up yellow unmodified.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:47 am

*boot*

This discussion going anywhere now? I'm assuming that CB Fich's fate has been decided on, so what's next? I need to satisfy my craving for analysis.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:56 pm

Cac wrote:
if a stage has a lot of possibilities, like katina, simp2, corneria, even sauria, zoness, etc it should be random pick
but the ones you can only play one way, like ap, simp3, cbfich should be yellow

[...] we should have different playing styles be viable on the random picks
and this is more or less the way i feel too; we basically have this green/yellow/red system borrowed from SSBM and we've been thus far trying to shoehorn it into SFA with character balances. this isn't really the way it should work though; if someone wants to play a stage where you can only play a certain way, they should be able to pick that stage themselves.

so yeah, yellow it is for CBF and we will have to have the V5 thread pretty soon i think, lol. on to SAURIA REDUX
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