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 STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)

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ThatLunaticFeline

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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:00 pm

Oh BOY I been missin this

Before I write an understanding of the stage can someone please show to me the cave that is FORBIDDEN to enter? I can't seem to find it/am looking straight at it but can't understand why it's banned to go in there
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:35 pm

it's the tunnel under the lower large temple (the one with HL on the lower level and sniper on the upper). in the past there were some issues with delay-of-game scenarios happening; you can't fly a missile into the cave and nades are difficult to get in there, so the only way to smoke someone out is to get close to it or in it.

these days, i suppose it could be problematic towards the end of the game, when there's no time for a player down one point to look for weapons. if you've got 45 seconds or a minute left, you have to push into the cave, and if your opponent is faster than you they can endlessly juke you if you don't have weapons. the fact that the cave's got two exits makes it really easy to put a lot of ground between you and your opponent at any one time.

it's not a huge deal nowadays and entire games won't be eaten up by cave fights but all the same it doesn't really add anything to gameplay anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:12 am

it so quiet

OK, Sauria. One of the better stages for sure, this stage shouldn't have any reasons for not being green, so instead of a full-on analysis of the strengths of the map I'll instead detail some of its weaknesses (excluding the cave mentioned in the post above), but also why these weaknesses are insignificant enough to consider yellow.

Sauria is small for a large map. In SFA there are three types of maps - small, large, and huge - and out of the small group of large maps Sauria is definitely the closest to being a small one.

1) This means that there are a few places that will very commonly see fights, like the trail between the southern buildings, and a lot of places that do not see fights often if at all, such as the easternmost path. A common aspect of these mini-arenas is that they all have plenty of cover, meaning that those with good maneuverability have a better chance of controlling fights.

However, the pure fact that there is so much cover means that it's hard to deny that with the right plays anyone has a chance in a fight.

2) Fast characters have a huge advantage over slow ones because of the size of the map and the huge amount of cover. It's the same principle as full Fichina - in a 1v1, someone gets a kill then runs away for the rest of the game. It's a dirty tactic, but it works.

As I discussed above, Sauria is a small big map. The advantage is not as significant on a smaller map like this when compared to something like full Corneria. It's still difficult to catch up to a faster character when playing a Peppy, though, which is a point that should be kept in mind - but faster characters tend to have less HP (unless they're Fox) so this point is dubious. Another advantage for the slower character is the tiered structure of the stage: there are 4 tiers to the stage (river, bridges + temples, main temple, top of the temple), and there are plenty of fantastic places where you could ambush someone from a higher tier. This is still the point most in favour of yellow, but as this applies to most large/huge maps it can still be debated that this can be ignored.

3) The spawns.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

That's a lot of spawns. And it's also still possible that I missed one or two. What's significant about this vast quantity of spawns is the problem of RNG; a lot of the spawns are on the same tier as each other (bridges+temples/river) so someone with a strong position at, say, the south temples has a large chance (by this map, a 64% chance) that an enemy will spawn in line of sight or in close proximity to this person. Catch them early with a nice sniper or grenade and there goes half their health. Another problem is the fact that (as I mentioned before) this area is a common fighting ground.

But it's RNG, and that makes the point redundant. Also, barriers exist. Oh, and so does dodging. And it's not always gonna end up with someone being in the exact place I talked about, so really, Sauria is awesome and covered in plenty of green grass.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:46 am

I say green and ml can fit i the cave I've done it. I do agree with the fast character advantage though. Even as fox I hate racing falco to the barrier near spawn 3. Also I've been playing for a while and I've never spawned in some these places. What determines where you spawn?
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:49 am

It's all random, and believe me when I say it took me almost an hour to find half of those spawns. Perhaps it's something in the code that we don't know about - that some spawns are less likely to be seen than others - but until we have proof the answer is RNG.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:28 pm

ThatLunaticFeline wrote:
1) This means that there are a few places that will very commonly see fights, like the trail between the southern buildings, and a lot of places that do not see fights often if at all, such as the easternmost path. [...]

However, the pure fact that there is so much cover means that it's hard to deny that with the right plays anyone has a chance in a fight.
i'd argue that positioning is the most important thing on this map, and there's no denying that here there are some pretty long periods in which nothing happens but positioning. knowing that most games on this map rarely go above 2-2, how do you feel about the possibility that the layout of this stage may be too paralyzing to play on?

i mean, no one wants to engage a stacked player with positioning advantage anyway, but if there are only three places on the map you want to fight your opponent and you can't get sight on them, you're going to have to waste a lot of time.

Quote :
2) Fast characters have a huge advantage over slow ones because of the size of the map and the huge amount of cover.
yeah, i'd say there are more reasons to play a faster character here for sure, but hell, we have games with Yosh where he takes out STG's Falc pretty easily for some reason or another and at this point i'm starting to agree with Cac in that character selection is less and less of a big deal.

so i might vote green if i can get around the fact that the most common score here is 2-2 and positioning often seems a little cruel to players who've just lost an engagement. it's true though, we do often see a lot of different stuff and diverse styles of play here, and i might be cool with letting this one go unrestricted
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:05 am

HAXage wrote:
knowing that most games on this map rarely go above 2-2, how do you feel about the possibility that the layout of this stage may be too paralyzing to play on?
There is that problem, yeah. I didn't include it in my post because I always felt that Sauria's layout was a strength, but under the right circumstances you're right for sure.

There is no real solution for this, as it's all the players' choices. My only thought is *COUGH*survival*COUGH* just going with it. If a player wants to win, they'll go aggressive, and if they want to be defensive, it'll be a harder time to get an advantage for them.

And as you said, it's all about how good the player is. If someone can take down a fully stacked Krystal with 3 barriers then GOOD FOR THEM, they need not worry about their position so much as keeping themselves at good HP.

But I've got an arrangement with a couple friends to come over every 2 weeks to play some games now, so no doubt I'll be forcing SFA down their throats and I'll finally get an opportunity to practice properly.

And we'll be playing survival HAHAHAH

but srsly i don't get why survival isn't the default gamemode really, especially in FFA.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:06 pm

ThatLunaticFeline wrote:
but srsly i don't get why survival isn't the default gamemode really, especially in FFA.
the games just end up being stall fests, and timed games promotes aggression and more action - you rarely see matches with more than 5 kills in the 5 minute time game now unless its on a small stage
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:18 pm

ThatLunaticFeline wrote:
especially in FFA.
camp games just get rewarded too easily in survival FFA. as for 1v1, STG summed it up nicely

speaking of which, STG what do you think about Saur green, bearing in mind this new and radical method of thinking about maps
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:11 pm

I play survival on every mode except 4 player matches and i never have camping problems. Our any problems actually
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:47 am

i really like Sauria, i really do, but I just can't see it being a green stage.  It's just too large.  Thankfully the missiles really aren't that big of a deal since there's ton of cover, but like if you get a first point and a large stash of weapons (particularly HL's) on high ground, its very tough to come back from, since you're likely going to get HL's rained on you no matter where they are since the most common spawn points are in a very open area.

My vote is still yellow in 1v1's.  

Also I usually get flossed here, I don't know why.  I'm thinking I should just give up on Falco and just pick Slippy all the time now lol.

EDIT: the 100 hours video is amazing btw, I remember Cac mentioning the instadeath on Xevious when you were in Kelowna, it really was right after the music ended haha
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:01 pm

I think STG has made a big point.

I think that I like Sauria a bit too much - after reading that comment I realized that Sauria's weaknesses aren't fatal, but they are more damaging than I originally thought.

Sauria is probably better as yellow - and if it is so, then why not make it unrestricted? There's still ApCity with the unbreachable boiler, so why not Sauria with the unbreachable cave (which I doubt will be overused anyway)?
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:22 pm

it's not so much that i fear someone will be camping the tunnel throughout the whole game, but more that it provides a really convenient place to stall for thirty seconds or even a whole minute. by the time someone pushes into the cave, you're already out the other end; if they follow you, you can loop back around to the other side, and if they try and cut you off, you can just duck back in.

i know that there's a lot of terrain you can potentially do this with - and the temples on this stage don't offer such easy places to fight, in a similar fashion - but the difference between the cave and, say, the center of Fich is that there's only one space in the cave and there's no room for maneuverability, no way to outspeed or juke your opponent. you just have to run at them, and it's all too easy to see when someone's going to commit to that.

the closest analogue we have might be the roof above the missile spawn on Zoness, which is banned for Pep. again, it won't help you win a whole game, but if you have a one-point lead, the game can essentially end at 4:30 instead of 5:00 just because your opponent couldn't hit you. the example on Zoness is less foolproof than the cave, given that you need to control the missiles to make sure your opponent doesn't get to you, but it's a similar stall tactic that's easily remediable by banning the offending part of the map. i mean it's such a small area, anyway; i don't think it'll be terribly missed.

so yeah, i'd prefer to keep the restriction, and now we only have one person (Jay) against yellow Saur, so unless anyone has any points i think we'll conclude this one.

i'll see if i can get Cac to pitch in a little bit on this one though, seeing as how he was the one who floated the idea of green Saur to me shortly after Kelowna 2013 in the first place
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:24 pm

OK

So I'm going to China for 10 days for a school trip

It's gonna be gud

But when I get back I expect this forum to be alive again

Got it?

That's the 1st of November that I return. You have until then.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:25 pm

china! damn dude, that's pretty cool. i'll try and whip up some action haha, looks like i have more time these days than i thought i did
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:08 am

I return! My first year of high school has been REALLY busy, so I haven't had time for this.

ANYWAYS...

I think Sauria should in 1v1 be either 1) Green, no tunnel, 2) Yellow, tunnel is legal, 3) A combination, where it is green the first game, and the tunnel is banned, and afterwards the stage picker can choose whether the tunnel should be banned or not per round.

P.S. I'm before your deadline TLF! HA! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:10 pm

keep in mind that it's pretty unlikely the same map is going to be played twice in a row in a set, especially if it's something like Sauria. i mean, it can happen, but i don't think that it's a big enough deal that i'd want to include that as a prerequisite for playing the map at all.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:39 am

What I meant was if it is randomed for the first game of a match, then it is green, no tunnel, and then if it is chosen as a counterpick later, regardless of whether it was randomed first or not, it is yellow, with tunnel.

I hope that makes sense. I didn't realize how easily that could be misinterpreted. Heck, even this explantion may be misinterpreted.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sat Nov 02, 2013 11:22 am

sfafreak wrote:
P.S. I'm before your deadline TLF! HA! Razz
Congratulations. Here, have a nothing.

I think it's probably safest to put Sauria as unrestricted yellow, as loathe as I am to say it. Sauria is a nice stage so seeing it go yellow is a sad thing but it's for the best.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:27 am

all right, let's just move this along then; i want to get all the new statuses sorted out before i potentially play a few sets with the Kelowna guys next weekend!

we have... CB Corneria up next, lol. we have a grand total of one game with this mode tested and i gotta say i'm considering just axing this one from the map pool entirely. it doesn't have any cover; the only thing to commend it is the wider weapons pool in the center and even that is not really a big deal. all the problems everyone has with CBF are going to be even worse here since the center column is so much bigger than CBF, and the spawns are even wackier to boot and we might end up wasting 30 seconds every time someone gets a kill to wait for the player to walk back in.

so yeah i vote no colour, and that its existence simply be erased haha

EDIT: we did have Saur green 4p before, i think that is worth keeping. you can see a whole bunch of time-era games (and even a few points games!) that went really well with more than 2 players in the stage at one time, and i think nothing's really changed enough in the way we look at stages to say "yeah, this should be yellow 4p as well".
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:14 am

I think every stage should be Green 4P except Fichina. Fichina's too massive and there's too much cover, unlike Titania.

But as for CBC, I agree with removing it. Unlike Fichina, where everything outside the center is boring, Corneria has way more potential. That, and the center of Corneria is, like you said, too far away from some spawns. And the center column is too wide - a player with the advantage could just run rings around it and it'd be impossible for the enemy to catch up.

Kill it.
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:46 am

I agree. CBC has always been kind of spammy, since the only cover is the center column, unlike CBF which has those wonderful
mini-walls.

"And now, young Center-ban stage, you will die"
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PostSubject: Re: STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)   Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:40 pm

then dead it shall be, and we can conclude this stage revision!

great success, many thanks to all those who contributed. i'll be playing some SFA with the Kelowna guys over the next few days so i'll report what happens under the new stage colours since there should be plenty of friendly sets happening.

STG EDIT: with mod abuse powers i'll say i'll actually be willing to test some of this stuff for real when hax is out, instead of last time where everyone but him was like NAH LETS JUST DO IT THIS WAY

man why is this locked anyway

oh turns out i could have made my own post

Well Played!
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