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 Tower on Katina banned?

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STG

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PostSubject: Tower on Katina banned?   Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:59 pm

I was just thinking to why the cave on Sauria is banned, I've just always kinda rolled with it, I never understood why you couldn't just shoot the sensor or run in with a HL or something, its no different then camping on top of that platform on Zoness that only Peppy and I think Slippy can get on on the top floor near the elevator (which I think should be banned too).

I think the arguement has always been "but you can get missiles" - which is a huge issue, since if they're not up, you have to go collect weapons and waste more time while the person with the pak rains down at the very least CB's at you or even HL's or missiles of their own.

tl;dr you can fire a missile or HL or grenades into the cave on Sauria and it's easier to deal with than someone who is pretty much unhittable on Katina
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PostSubject: Re: Tower on Katina banned?   Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:09 am

There's something like this on a lot of stages. I think the easier option would just be to ban Booster Packs, but to me that seems wrong because the Booster Pack is a risk-reward item with the way it destroys your quick vertical jumps while granting you better manoeuvrability on some tight maps with killzones like the sea in Zoness. It's also easily countered with even the shortest bit of hitstun making you lose all momentum and dropping down a considerable distance. Over Zoness's seas, this can be devastating.

I guess that in relation to the tower on Katina, it's all to do with the player. If they let their enemy get up to the top, it's their own fault, as just one BCB could have stopped them and set up for a nice punish afterwards. The one counterargument to this is a barrier to secure a nice smooth ride, but I'd say that as both players can see each other (despite the low-ground high-ground advantage for the tower player) it's still not as much of a worry. If the game is running at a draw or better for the lower-ground player, then they could just hide under one of the bridges, or go inside the central building, as the high-ground player can't get those from his position. If the game isn't running as well, Missiles from a safe position like those I just mentioned will clear the enemy off the top easily, unless they are Krystal and have another barrier.

In which case you're screwed.
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STG

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PostSubject: Re: Tower on Katina banned?   Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:19 pm

I definately agree with the fact booster packs shouldn't be banned, they're a pretty trash item.

You can't prevent them from getting up with a BCB if they're on the other side of the tower, or if they've just killed you or something. There's no reason for the player to go on the tower if they're losing, so that's not really relevant.

And like I said, you can't just assume the missiles will be up. The guy on the tower might even have them! If you have to run around collecting weapons to make it spawn, you could be a character like Slippy/Peppy (for some reason...) and it could tkae forever. Falco would probably die or have to waste a barrier getting them if the tower opponent has missiles or HL's, and if you have to barrier, the tower opponent gains an advantage for very little risk.

I was just watching some old tournaments (namely this match: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] at 10:45)

where HAXage just camps on top of the elevator with Peppy because Fox can't get up there, there isn't enough time to get missiles or grenades. I think the Katina deal came up in a game earlier too, but I can't remember which one.
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HAXage
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PostSubject: Re: Tower on Katina banned?   Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:20 pm

yeah that one match is more or less responsible for that plat being banned on Zoness now, it was garbage

you're right though, this is not really any different an exploit and it can waste an enormous amount of time in game. the fact that nobody's ever used it doesn't really change anything; in points games, exploits like this might not have been as big a deal but now the entire game centers around making pushes in the time you're given. i agree, it should be banned

hell, while we're at it we should probably look for other timewasting stuff in other maps... this is more or less the reason why the entirety of Titania is banned anyway lol

TLF, you're right in that there's nothing stopping the other player from getting missiles (unless the abusing player has them already), but i think the time consumed in getting them is more of an issue... obviously there are a lot of places in a lot of stages where it's very hard to get hit, but when you're limited to "hit them before they get there" (which may not be an option) or "go get the one weapon that'll help in this scenario" you've sort of already acknowledged that this strat is not just about making someone hard to hit but making sure the other player wastes as much time trying to hit them as possible, and that's not great
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SfaFreak

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PostSubject: Re: Tower on Katina banned?   Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:23 am

HAXage wrote:
yeah that one match is more or less responsible for that plat being banned on Zoness now, it was garbage
Wait, what banned platform? I think I missed something. And BTW, youtube doesn't work on my computer for some freaking reason, (even my IT friend can't figure it out) so I have to watch it on my 3DS, which can't just directly click a link.
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STG

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PostSubject: Re: Tower on Katina banned?   Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:10 am

Peppy and Slippy can jump on top of the platform at the top of the elevator that spawns missiles at the top and you can't hit them without grenades or missiles. We've managed to lose all our copies of SFA out here, but I bought another one that should arrive next week sometime, so i'll see if I can find anywhere else.
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PostSubject: Re: Tower on Katina banned?   Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:52 am

The Cave was banned in the points era.

It would be a good idea to re-review all gimp spots from the 5-minute mindset because we never have.
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STG

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PostSubject: Re: Tower on Katina banned?   Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:51 am

am I totally out in left field in thinking that the cave should be unbanned on Sauria?  It's honestly just easier to run in the opposite direction of your opponent than just sit in the cave, it's honestly pretty easy to smoke someone out by coming in from above the cave since they're forced to run out into the river where there's little cover.

I've never really played with the cave unbanned though, and when I did, nobody thought to camp it because we were pretty gung-ho about running at each other with charged blasters and trying to get kills as fast as possible (with slippy....)

We can test stuff out here in Kelowna once the copy of SFA I bought finally arrives, either this week or next week.
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PostSubject: Re: Tower on Katina banned?   Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:22 am

you might have started something with this thread, lol. i dunno, re. the cave, the thing is that you can't hit each other at all unless you're both completely inside the cave or completely outside of it.

the way i'm imagining it is: you go in to smoke someone out by coming in through the temple and they run out. during the time it takes for them to get up inside the temple you shouldn't really be able to hit them if you're already inside the cave... but that is something that does require testing and if you guys could take a run at it that would be great.

edit: it occurs to me that sensors right above the temple entrance to the cave might be a solution, in that the exiting player has to approach them from below without being able to shoot them (compare the sensor trap on the stairs in the main building on Zoness: one in front of the stairwell, one behind). not sure when they'd trigger and if it'd be possible to get them in the right position but someone should give that a shot as well.
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STG

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PostSubject: Re: Tower on Katina banned?   Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:14 am

I think the other two places that are unreachable that I know of (Zoness, Katina) should definately be banned. I don't think you can even HL someone on the Zoness platform.
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PostSubject: Re: Tower on Katina banned?   Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:56 pm

STG wrote:
I think the other two places that are unreachable that I know of (Zoness, Katina) should definately be banned.  I don't think you can even HL someone on the Zoness platform.

you definitely can't HL someone on the platform above the missiles and the small elevator. hell, i think even the platform above the large elevator has cover that renders you unhittable unless your opponent has missiles, although you can only get up there with a BP

then again, i think Katina should be banned, and it's in the same situation, so yeah i have no problem with axing that
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