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J Smooth

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PostSubject: simple map 3 (spawning)   Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:44 am

I was playing a 5 minute sniper match on simple map 3 and in the end i had 63 kills. For 4 of those 5 minutes my opponenet spawned in the same spot (on the second floor across from the barrier spawn) non-stop. I figured it was a one time thing, so we did a rematch. this time my opponent kept spawning on the top floor (on the higher end of the red-green ramp. He had no time to run, jump, roll or use a barrier since i shot the second he spawned(players spawn in 4 seconds). I simply counted to 4 in my head and fired.This will happen in every type of match on SFA.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:29 pm

yeah, that would be cause for concern - i've had my eye on the spawns on simp3 for a while now (there are only about 5 or 6 of them in total) and something like this would not be good for the stage's status. however, nothing that we have on video comes even close to what you've described here; i remember i scored two or three sniper spawnkills on Cac in a notable off-camera game (and still didn't win the game, ha ha) but they were all on different levels; i had to work for 'em, basically. so here are some counterexamples:

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a blowout game with at least one "spawnkill" right at the end; however, there was more than enough time for WWORQGUI to react with bar or whatever. worth noting that he did spawn in the same place a couple of times in a row, but it was never more than twice and it was generally when Akp was on a different level.

02[14]6

less blowout, but maybe a little more suspicious - on the second spawn, Leon gets the redgreen ramp, and you can actually see STG looking over there with a sniper as he does so. if he hadn't had a bad angle on the spawn he probably would have grabbed a kill there. not really a big deal by itself, but then Leon's next spawn is in the same spot... would things have gone differently if STG had killed him then and there? maybe, but we can't say for sure

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a more even game. STG gets spawns redblue/redgreen/redblue/redgreen the whole game, but they're all when Cac is on a different floor. could someone have exploited this pattern? yeah, but not to a game-breaking extent; we see stuff like sensor traps on spawns/creative nades all the time on simp3, nothing that outright makes the game impossible to win...

basically, either there's something different between our copies of SFA (not probable, but certainly possible) or this spawn exploit is triggered somehow. if it's triggered, we need to find out how it's triggered and we need to be able to reproduce it with near-perfect accuracy.

so yeah, my request to you now is: reproduce this exploit, and tell us how to produce it for ourselves, and if you can do that, then Houston we have a problem and we need to talk bans. banning anything is a pretty big deal in SFA, so we have to make absolutely sure that this is ban-worthy.
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HAXage
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:36 pm

i will also say that consideration of any spawn exploits (even if they aren't this extreme) might be worth moving this stage to yellow, at least. it is a very... sketchy stage when it comes to spawns and it's easy to get some free damage by trapping them. of course, when you do this you run the risk of landing on your own traps, but it is certainly possible to go on a tear and not die because your opponent spawns with effectively -40 health thanks to your sensors.

we'll discuss it in the next stage revisions, though, that's more the time and place for that sort of question
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:10 am

HAX, you're links can only be viewed by admins...

Also, I would say spawn exploitation on Simp 3 is most critical for sensors, not snipers. With sensors, you can trap multiple spawns. Also, if you are within a certain proximity to a spawnpoint, no-one can spawn there.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:06 am

haha whoops, it's set to admin-only view by default for some reason

anyway yeah, right now the only concern is sensors; however, if Jay can tell us more about this spawnkill exploit then we have some significantly bigger problems than taking a bit of damage on spawn or having to blow a barrier.
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FalcoXII



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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:16 am

Even though I think sensors are more critical than snipers, I still don't think they're a big deal. The biggest reason is that if you are going to hit them often with sensors, you're definitely going to hurt yourself often as well.
Additionally, you can just evade and shoot the sensors when you can to clear (at least some of) the spawns.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:28 pm

FalcoXII wrote:
HAX, you're links can only be viewed by admins...

Also, I would say spawn exploitation on Simp 3 is most critical for sensors, not snipers. With sensors, you can trap multiple spawns. Also, if you are within a certain proximity to a spawnpoint, no-one can spawn there.
but with snipers you can camp just outside of proximity of a spawn spot (if your opponent keeps spawning there) and cause -all hp instead of -40 hp
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:34 pm

HAXage wrote:
haha whoops, it's set to admin-only view by default for some reason

anyway yeah, right now the only concern is sensors; however, if Jay can tell us more about this spawnkill exploit then we have some significantly bigger problems than taking a bit of damage on spawn or having to blow a barrier.
I think the reason my opponent kept spawning in the same place is because i didn't move from the area i shot from, or even unscope for that matter. It doesn't make much sense but it's the only thing i can think of. That, or the fact that it stayed out of the proximity of the spawn spot but still had a clear shot at it.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:04 pm

I really don't like that map as a whole, so I might be biased but w/e

Its already a small map with a really exploitable item runs (similar to simp2, which invis is banned on) already, and if this can be reproduced, i'd definately be bannable in my opinion.

also peppy gets wrecked here in theory too, as does slippy.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:29 pm

Jay Unstoppable wrote:
That, or the fact that it stayed out of the proximity of the spawn spot but still had a clear shot at it.

this seems the likeliest. if this is true, then this is actually theoretically reproduceable on ANY map - assuming all the spawn points change in the same way, simply standing still anywhere with a fix on the spawn could allow repeated spawnkills.

however, let's not call anything until we test it. i don't have my copy of SFA here. maybe someone else can try and reproduce this again - on other maps as well, possibly? try some of the other Simple maps and then something like Kat or Sarg, i suppose

and one more question: Jay, where were you standing when you got these spawnkills? i think this'll be important, as if this is triggered by the killing player's position, we'll probably need to know exactly where it does trigger.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:38 pm

i could probably test it out after i finish exams, providing i don't get hooked on sonic 06' again

I think there's an sfa disc somewhere in the abyss of games...
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:38 pm

HAXage wrote:
Jay Unstoppable wrote:
That, or the fact that it stayed out of the proximity of the spawn spot but still had a clear shot at it.

this seems the likeliest. if this is true, then this is actually theoretically reproduceable on ANY map - assuming all the spawn points change in the same way, simply standing still anywhere with a fix on the spawn could allow repeated spawnkills.

however, let's not call anything until we test it. i don't have my copy of SFA here. maybe someone else can try and reproduce this again - on other maps as well, possibly? try some of the other Simple maps and then something like Kat or Sarg, i suppose

and one more question: Jay, where were you standing when you got these spawnkills? i think this'll be important, as if this is triggered by the killing player's position, we'll probably need to know exactly where it does trigger.
When he kept spawning on the red-green ramp i was standing across from it (near the red- blue ramp) and when he kept spawning on the second level i was looking down on him from the right side (relative to the red-blue ramp) of the top level. I don't think exact positioning matters because for the second floor spawn i dropped down to the second level (across the gap from the spawn spot) its self and he still spawned there. As long as your not to close the player will spawn where they spawned last, since the stage is so small.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:41 pm

got some minor testing done today! the long and short of it is that Cac doesn't think this is a big deal at all, and i have to say after seeing it first-hand i'm inclined to agree, but here are the details:

1. standing at the blue/red spawn and not moving, looking toward the green/red spawn WILL cause your opponent to spawn exclusively in that area, regardless of any other factors (characters, game settings, etc.). this is really interesting and weird since it's the first example of any spawning exploit/manipulation we've ever seen in SFA, so you deserve some credit for that at least Jay, haha

2. however - the interval between the player spawning and being able to move is almost instantaneous. this means that (for Cac, at least, and probably for many others) there is ample time to hammer B, move, jump or do all sorts of stuff right out of spawn that could annul an instant kill. Jay, maybe you have the timing down better than i do, i'm not ruling that out, but it was difficult if not impossible to get a 100% guaranteed kill.

it's also worth considering that barriers come out in 1 frame, as soon as you press B. this means that barring a tool-assisted slowed down shot it is entirely possible and even probable that the spawnkiller will simply fire too late; it takes more than one frame for the sniper round itself to travel between the two points.

finally, and probably most importantly, the unlikelihood of it all is worth mentioning - that a sniper-holding player would kill their opponent in that particular area, be able to set up a picture-perfect aim on the spawnpoint, and preserve dead-accurate timing enough to keep up a steady spree.

in short, i really don't think this is exploitable enough to warrant a whole rule for it. if you or anyone else could record some regular (not sniper-only) games that were completely broken by this (i.e. way more than two-point or one-point leads, something that conclusively couldn't have been won after the exploit was used) then we might be looking at some sort of rule implemented to counter this. it wouldn't be a stage ban though; an extremely unlikely outcome would be that the stage could be made yellow (since sensor exploits et al. are still possible with this). more likely, IF anything were to be done, it'd just be a rule stating "player must be in motion until opposing player has spawned" or "player cannot be scoped in until opposing player has spawned" but even this is overkill until we see some proof that this breaks games with certainty.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:57 am

HAXage wrote:
got some minor testing done today! the long and short of it is that Cac doesn't think this is a big deal at all, and i have to say after seeing it first-hand i'm inclined to agree, but here are the details:

1. standing at the blue/red spawn and not moving, looking toward the green/red spawn WILL cause your opponent to spawn exclusively in that area, regardless of any other factors (characters, game settings, etc.). this is really interesting and weird since it's the first example of any spawning exploit/manipulation we've ever seen in SFA, so you deserve some credit for that at least Jay, haha

2. however - the interval between the player spawning and being able to move is almost instantaneous. this means that (for Cac, at least, and probably for many others) there is ample time to hammer B, move, jump or do all sorts of stuff right out of spawn that could annul an instant kill. Jay, maybe you have the timing down better than i do, i'm not ruling that out, but it was difficult if not impossible to get a 100% guaranteed kill.

it's also worth considering that barriers come out in 1 frame, as soon as you press B. this means that barring a tool-assisted slowed down shot it is entirely possible and even probable that the spawnkiller will simply fire too late; it takes more than one frame for the sniper round itself to travel between the two points.

finally, and probably most importantly, the unlikelihood of it all is worth mentioning - that a sniper-holding player would kill their opponent in that particular area, be able to set up a picture-perfect aim on the spawnpoint, and preserve dead-accurate timing enough to keep up a steady spree.

in short, i really don't think this is exploitable enough to warrant a whole rule for it. if you or anyone else could record some regular (not sniper-only) games that were completely broken by this (i.e. way more than two-point or one-point leads, something that conclusively couldn't have been won after the exploit was used) then we might be looking at some sort of rule implemented to counter this. it wouldn't be a stage ban though; an extremely unlikely outcome would be that the stage could be made yellow (since sensor exploits et al. are still possible with this). more likely, IF anything were to be done, it'd just be a rule stating "player must be in motion until opposing player has spawned" or "player cannot be scoped in until opposing player has spawned" but even this is overkill until we see some proof that this breaks games with certainty.
I would like to post a video but im having some computer problems. But I did re-test this with someone with better reaction time, he couldn't get out my scope's view upon spawning (even as falco) since i shot him before he even touched the stage, so he was forced to use a barrier. Though he escaped death by sniper, I now had a barrier that he did not and had better chances of getting to the barrier pick-up first from both repeat spawn spots.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:11 pm

Jay Unstoppable wrote:
I now had a barrier that he did not and had better chances of getting to the barrier pick-up first from both repeat spawn spots.

see, i agree that this is awful and i'd rage if it happened to me in game, but i'd also rage at missiles, snipes, getting RCB'd by Yosh and everything else, and even so...

Jay Unstoppable wrote:
he escaped death by sniper,

and really, this is what matters. yes, it is possible, with pinpoint timing and a whole lot of luck to set up the spawnkills, to go on a tear and win, but it's also possible to collect one sniper and get 10 kills with it and camp out the rest of the game in ANY map, or get a billion kills with one GGun pickup, or whatever. the thing is that you don't see things like this happening in normal games precisely because they are possible but not probable, and i think in this case that even if someone were trying to exploit this - without any setup - they would be hard pressed to gain more than the aforementioned barrier force, and one wasted barrier is not a lost game by any means.

we'll keep an eye on this stage all the same. the item runs are a little bit dodgy, you can do other stuff with sensors, and this is probably the most questionably green stage in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:46 pm

HAXage wrote:
Jay Unstoppable wrote:
I now had a barrier that he did not and had better chances of getting to the barrier pick-up first from both repeat spawn spots.

see, i agree that this is awful and i'd rage if it happened to me in game, but i'd also rage at missiles, snipes, getting RCB'd by Yosh and everything else, and even so...

Jay Unstoppable wrote:
he escaped death by sniper,

and really, this is what matters. yes, it is possible, with pinpoint timing and a whole lot of luck to set up the spawnkills, to go on a tear and win, but it's also possible to collect one sniper and get 10 kills with it and camp out the rest of the game in ANY map, or get a billion kills with one GGun pickup, or whatever. the thing is that you don't see things like this happening in normal games precisely because they are possible but not probable, and i think in this case that even if someone were trying to exploit this - without any setup - they would be hard pressed to gain more than the aforementioned barrier force, and one wasted barrier is not a lost game by any means.

we'll keep an eye on this stage all the same. the item runs are a little bit dodgy, you can do other stuff with sensors, and this is probably the most questionably green stage in the game.
It may not be so easy to exploit on normal circumstances, but is very easy with a stealth suit. Also, a wasted barrier can very well mean losing a match against a good player.
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PostSubject: Re: simple map 3 (spawning)   Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:26 pm

Jay Unstoppable wrote:
Also, a wasted barrier can very well mean losing a match against a good player.

oh yeah, of course, games have been lost on less significant things even. the thing is that losing one barrier isn't a predictable loss, or at least it's not on the same caliber as 60-point games. hell, i've had games against Cac (us two being players who, i think i could say without being accused of arrogance, are "very good" or some derivation thereof, and mostly at the same skill level) where he gets three straight points on me and then i get three straight points on him to tie the game, barrier use and all. a blown barrier isn't a certain loss by any means; SFA isn't always point-for-point.

i'm not feeling the stealth suit either. it seems to me that that's just another step in an already pretty complicated setup. even with stealth you still have to wait for your opponent to line up there... no, it's still going to be a really lucky thing to get a perfect lineup shot while standing exactly where you need to be, i think
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