STAGE REVISION THREAD V4: THE CULLING (COMPLETE!!!)

With as big a stage as Sauria, the slower character has no control of when combat occurs. I think that because of the supreme control fast characters hold, it should be Yellow.

Jay McCloud wrote:

There is plenty of cover and speed doesn't make much of a difference unless someone is hiding in a pyramid, invisible or is moving through the water (which drops speed by at least a star or two).

but don't the pyramid engagements make up most of a match? there's not much incentive for a slow character to engage outside of the heavy cover that the large temples provide... i think pushing is very hard for slow characters here since they need to be cloistered in temples half the time to avoid being picked off, and there's not much provided here to be able to shut down weapon runs - the only cover here is offered with the caveat that the safer you are, the fewer vantage points you have.

i mean this stage is not too terribly lame in regards to this slant, but i think there certainly is a difference. it's unfortunate that we don't have an excessive amount of videos featuring this matchup online, and the ones we do have don't really display the kind of runs that can happen here

Not really too much to say about sauria. Bigger stage with lots of cover so fast characters have the edge. I think that warrants it to be yellow for 1v1.

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Did this need to be brought up or does the new time style take care of that potential problem?

Zerolink100 wrote:

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Did this need to be brought up or does the new time style take care of that potential problem?

well we certainly don't have any games that long nowadays thanks to time but it's an interesting point: with stock, games involving a slow character here are often really long. what this tells me is that there are BIG periods between damage being dealt, and that this is probably by virtue of the map's layout.

what does this mean? well, in time matches, it certainly indicates that a fast character has a lot more of an opportunity to play the running game when they have a lead, since - as the length of stock games suggests - they're not being pressured half the time.

compare it to Titania (although this is a really extreme example and there isn't a "focus" for camping on Sauria like there is on Titan) where there is literally NO pressure on the player at the top of the spire unless their opponent is up there too. that's broadly the situation on Saur half the game, and it, like on Titania, means players will be less inclined to pick a slow character when they're just going to get given the runaround during the last minute of the game.

... theoretically, anyway. i'm beginning to think we should have had the whole time/stock debate BEFORE starting the stage revisions, lol

I say we go to the next stage, agreed?

sure, i'd like to know what people think of Corneria nowadays; we haven't looked at this stage's quality in time matches yet. does that mean you're okay with Saur yellow 1v1 or would you just like to bring it up later and move on for now?

HAXage wrote:

sure, i'd like to know what people think of Corneria nowadays; we haven't looked at this stage's quality in time matches yet. does that mean you're okay with Saur yellow 1v1 or would you just like to bring it up later and move on for now?

I believe it should be green 1v1, but we should just move on for now. Corneria full or centerban?

full, to start with, since i haven't played this centerban in a while and i'd like to do some testing sometime in the next few days. long story short i'm going to hold out for yellow 2p and 4p and will post analyses in a bit.

very briefly, gameplay does not revolve around any central structure and thus lacks the speedy boiler games that happen on Katina et al. but at the same time requires the player to move quite a lot to get any pickups, as opposed to Sarg which, though it's a very evenly spread-out map, is overflowing with weapons at any given time. there isn't a huge character bias here but games can kind of run away from you in weird ways and it's often very difficult to tell where they're going if the score's been tied for a while. this isn't just limited to 1v1, either; there's so much space here (although a lot of it is never used) that the phenomenon is more or less present in all gametypes.

HAXage wrote:

full, to start with, since i haven't played this centerban in a while and i'd like to do some testing sometime in the next few days. long story short i'm going to hold out for yellow 2p and 4p and will post analyses in a bit.

very briefly, gameplay does not revolve around any central structure and thus lacks the speedy boiler games that happen on Katina et al. but at the same time requires the player to move quite a lot to get any pickups, as opposed to Sarg which, though it's a very evenly spread-out map, is overflowing with weapons at any given time. there isn't a huge character bias here but games can kind of run away from you in weird ways and it's often very difficult to tell where they're going if the score's been tied for a while. this isn't just limited to 1v1, either; there's so much space here (although a lot of it is never used) that the phenomenon is more or less present in all gametypes.

Green 4p and yellow 2p. I chose yellow because like you said, for some unknown reason its quite hard to win at a certain point. I believe its because of the boards diversity. Also most people don't realize that the highway can be used to run time down alot after gainig the lead.

yeah, there are plenty of ways to waste time in 2p here and it's certainly harder to gimp that way in 4p, but i dunno... i'd feel a bit better about voting green 4p if there weren't so many matches like these, all blowouts by a pretty significant margin for at least two players:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - even between Akp/Cac, but for some strange reasons, and some people are shut out due to positioning
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - maybe this says less about the map than it does about the player matchups but it is very blowouty and demonstrates how players can really run away with points if they get good control of the center

these games are a little more even but there's a really weird points gap in almost all the 4p matches we have here:

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i dunno, i'd like to make the bigger stages all green 4p since it's not such a high-stakes game format and it generally offers more opportunities for people to get back in the game, but this one is just kind of iffy to me... i think it has something to do with the lack of places to run, really; there's no great way to shake off your opponents and if someone gets out to the outskirts of the town SOMEONE is going to die whether it's the runner or the pursuer. there are just... a lack of things to do here when you need to duck out of the action, idk

HAXage wrote:

yeah, there are plenty of ways to waste time in 2p here and it's certainly harder to gimp that way in 4p, but i dunno... i'd feel a bit better about voting green 4p if there weren't so many matches like these, all blowouts by a pretty significant margin for at least two players:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - even between Akp/Cac, but for some strange reasons, and some people are shut out due to positioning
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - maybe this says less about the map than it does about the player matchups but it is very blowouty and demonstrates how players can really run away with points if they get good control of the center

these games are a little more even but there's a really weird points gap in almost all the 4p matches we have here:

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i dunno, i'd like to make the bigger stages all green 4p since it's not such a high-stakes game format and it generally offers more opportunities for people to get back in the game, but this one is just kind of iffy to me...  i think it has something to do with the lack of places to run, really; there's no great way to shake off your opponents and if someone gets out to the outskirts of the town SOMEONE is going to die whether it's the runner or the pursuer. there are just... a lack of things to do here when you need to duck out of the action, idk

I actually enjoy fighting in the outskirts (on centerban Corneria at least) because it proves a worthy challenge to get a kill in certain areas. Recently I began playing as Slip and when I go to the part of the outskirts with a bunch of trees the blaster is quite useful even against HL. But as far as the inner city, kills just seem to easy to acqurie no matter how much cover the buildings provide.

I think you've got it right Haxage, yellow for both 2p and 4p.

The way I see it for 2p is that you both start off near center, blaster battle with slight HL/GGun if you pick them up. Then the winner goes and picks up the remaining HL/GGun ammo and starts chasing down the newly spawned guy, using HL from long range force a barrier and then GGun to tear through it. From what I've see there are copious amounts of GGun kills on this stage.

For 4p I do see the spawning problem. There really aren't any weapons near those outter points that you can get to quickly so you have more options if the others decide to come try and kill you.

I really don't like to see a large stage yellow for 4p but there is a problem on this stage.

And after watching all of the matches on this stage I have 2 things to say...

Haxage you sure seem to get fashed a lot.

and do you guys know that any character can jump up the building with the invis and sniper from the small flatter parts near the inital spawn points around the center? or was that just unstrategic at any point?

Zerolink100 wrote:

Haxage you sure seem to get fashed a lot.

yeah i get wrecked in 4p games that way lol, just can't keep track of everything going on at once. regarding the green building... i believe i was vaguely aware you could get up there from the non-ramp side somehow but i didn't know it was possible with every char

and the weapon concentration on this stage is weird for sure... there's a heap of stuff in the center and just on the edge of the center (the HL building, DS, pod, missiles are the furthest out) and then a really sharp falloff anywhere further out. it bugs me that there were so many maps designed like this; was the intent just to waste space or did they think people would actually be using those areas that didn't house weapons? whatever the case, it means that there's a lot of ground to run on and not very much to fight on if you want a fight that isn't dominated by one single player holding all the weapons...

i could maybe see green 4p if it wasn't so easy for a stacked faster player to kind of herd and hedge people out of the center. you really have to be incredibly careful about when you push on this map since there's nowhere for you to run if your plan goes sour, and someone with height and HL has so many lines of sight here. i realize i'm not saying anything very convincing or making any really strong arguments here but this is just such a lopsided map, kind of akin to why i'd vote yellow Saur: there's no obvious strategy to exploit but something's just funny about it.

HAXage wrote:

Zerolink100 wrote:

Haxage you sure seem to get fashed a lot.

yeah i get wrecked in 4p games that way lol, just can't keep track of everything going on at once. regarding the green building... i believe i was vaguely aware you could get up there from the non-ramp side somehow but i didn't know it was possible with every char

and the weapon concentration on this stage is weird for sure... there's a heap of stuff in the center and just on the edge of the center (the HL building, DS, pod, missiles are the furthest out) and then a really sharp falloff anywhere further out. it bugs me that there were so many maps designed like this; was the intent just to waste space or did they think people would actually be using those areas that didn't house weapons? whatever the case, it means that there's a lot of ground to run on and not very much to fight on if you want a fight that isn't dominated by one single player holding all the weapons...

i could maybe see green 4p if it wasn't so easy for a stacked faster player to kind of herd and hedge people out of the center. you really have to be incredibly careful about when you push on this map since there's nowhere for you to run if your plan goes sour, and someone with height and HL has so many lines of sight here. i realize i'm not saying anything very convincing or making any really strong arguments here but this is just such a lopsided map, kind of akin to why i'd vote yellow Saur: there's no obvious strategy to exploit but something's just funny about it.

I constantly forget the difference betwween our gameplay. For this stage I've been speaking from my point of gameplay, which is special items off. I vote yellow for both 2p and 4p

Haxage wrote:

i believe i was vaguely aware you could get up there from the non-ramp side somehow but i didn't know it was possible with every char

It is. I just did some re-testing to make sure since I haven't played in awhile and I found out it's possible to just completely stand on those things like gravity doesn't affect you like it does on other sides. Certinally easier to do with slip/pep though but the others can get up within a try or 2.

JayMcCloud wrote:

For this stage I've been speaking from my point of gameplay, which is special items off.

Why do you play this way? Special items add so much more than just the blaster (if I'm remembering the rule correctly) unless you were just going for skill matches?

And is anyone else going to chime in on Corneria?

i believe "special items" in that setting means all the unlockables. most notably this means the ML and GG are absent. it's cool but it does introduce a bit of a problem in that the HL can become a hugely focused-upon weapon since there's never a necessity to decide between the HL or ML.

anyway, last chance for anyone to speak up on this one, i think

Zerolink100 wrote:

Haxage wrote:

i believe i was vaguely aware you could get up there from the non-ramp side somehow but i didn't know it was possible with every char

It is. I just did some re-testing to make sure since I haven't played in awhile and I found out it's possible to just completely stand on those things like gravity doesn't affect you like it does on other sides. Certinally easier to do with slip/pep though but the others can get up within a try or 2.

JayMcCloud wrote:

For this stage I've been speaking from my point of gameplay, which is special items off.

Why do you play this way? Special items add so much more than just the blaster (if I'm remembering the rule correctly) unless you were just going for skill matches?

And is anyone else going to chime in on Corneria?

Well I play alot of 3p matches so 2 players fighting while the third shoots ML is annoying. So eventually I just started playing the same way in 2p. All unlockables are off and it requires more skill and technique.

HAXage wrote:

i believe "special items" in that setting means all the unlockables. most notably this means the ML and GG are absent. it's cool but it does introduce a bit of a problem in that the HL can become a hugely focused-upon weapon since there's never a necessity to decide between the HL or ML.

anyway, last chance for anyone to speak up on this one, i think

This originally caused the HL problem but now my jumping and dodge timing is good enough to avoid HL's, all of which requires more skill.

all right, next was supposed to be CB Corneria but i still haven't run tests on this because i forgot to bring my SFA disk to Akp's place the other day (lol) so i'd like to move on to Ap now

i really don't anticipate anyone proposing green on this stage but some people have made arguments for red 1v1 here in the past... i think yellow is fine, but if you can convince me otherwise, i'm open to ideas. keep in mind Slip is totally playable here and the 3-speed chars are too; this isn't a one-character map by any means no matter how many Falc dittos we have on it!

HAXage wrote:

all right, next was supposed to be CB Corneria but i still haven't run tests on this because i forgot to bring my SFA disk to Akp's place the other day (lol) so i'd like to move on to Ap now

i really don't anticipate anyone proposing green on this stage but some people have made arguments for red 1v1 here in the past... i think yellow is fine, but if you can convince me otherwise, i'm open to ideas. keep in mind Slip is totally playable here and the 3-speed chars are too; this isn't a one-character map by any means no matter how many Falc dittos we have on it!

The issue on this stage is clearly the wepons being in the center. But most players dont realize how well the moving floors help dodge HL and destroy ML. I say green since I have won as Slip against Fox and Falco and seen Pep win against Fox and Falco as well. This happened in both special items on and off matches.

really, green?   i agree the conveyors are a big part of the stage here, but i don't think moving a few UPS faster is going to help if you're playing Pep and running into a stacked Falc controlling the center...

i mean it's not like you're always going to take a hit getting back in; often your opponent doesn't even have missiles or only has one left and you pop a bar or something, but it's a long way back in and the flying plats don't make frequent enough stops to avoid missiles entirely

Alright then, time to make a contribution.

I agree completely with HAXage that Ap should be a yellow stage. Looking at the map's design, you can clearly point out some very important points regarding its playability in competitive games.

Simply, the design is made to balance 1v1 and 2v2 while still providing some interest in a FFA match. It's obvious to see that, because of the weapons collected in the centre of the map, the stage is aiming for quick skirmishes and scrambles to get to the weapons quickly. This is reinforced by the spawn points - although not all of them are on the central platform (or boiler, if I remember correctly) they are all kept relatively close to one another and means that an early advantage on this map will cause a snowball effect - get 1 kill and you have the chance to force someone further away from the centre and put you in a much stronger position.

This snowball effect is compounded by the boiler's y-position. In comparison to all platforms leading to it, the boiler is higher up and therefore provides the high-ground advantage to a character standing on it. This high-ground advantage is crucial for two reasons.
1) You can stand still with a sniper and be at relative safety from slow-moving projectiles like the HL.
2) The only cover that protects an enemy from HL or Missile attacks from above are the steep slopes that lead towards the boiler - nowhere else is there aerial cover. Plus, these slopes provide very little ground cover and running up one without a barrier is easily punishable with a Peppy RCB to the face.

This means that a character on the central platform has a distinct advantage. It's a wonderful position to be in when in a 1v1 situation. To try and combat this advantage the designers have given characters on the lower platforms two counters.
1) Although most of the weapons spawn on the boiler there are a few that spawn on the lower platforms. Getting a sniper or some grenades provides amazing cover fire when running up the slope, forcing enemies to retreat out of caution.
2) Accessible from the middle-tier platforms are two sets of elevated walkways that go even higher than the boiler. This gives the high-ground advantage to a player on these walkways.

However, my reason for concluding that Ap 1v1 should be a Yellow map is for the reason that these two advantages to lower-platform characters are too insubstantial. The low-ground item spawns are easy to spot when on the boiler and should an enemy decide to go for them it can be punished with a well-timed grenade or HL, or with a quick run down to a full RCB or Gatling Gun, forcing the enemy to barrier at an inconvinient time for them.

Moreover, the high-ground advantage gained from the top-level walkways is much weaker than the advantage the boiler gives. The range is too far for an RCB shot, shooting a sniper is inconvenient due to the lack of gaps in the head-high walls, and if a player catches you out in that position it's very difficult to escape because of the linearity of the paths and the isolation from the rest of the map - jumping off will result in death.

The only other aspects of the map that needs to be discussed are the floating platforms and the travelators. The travelators are almost completely useless to low-ground characters and only offer the opportunity for a quicker fight initiation if you want to risk dying to get the opportunity, or to punish high-ground mistakes like an accidental barrier usage (shamefully I admit this has happened too many times). Otherwise, the high-ground character has far more use for them - allowing them to intercept a foe easily and return to his boiler throne room before the enemy can respawn and begin heading towards it.

The floating platforms are sadly the safest way to make your way onto the boiler - but also the easiest to counter and the most obvious. At least when on the low platforms you can make it seem like you just want to collect those small bunch of grenades - no amount of screen-watching can make an enemy psychic. With the floating platforms anyone can see what you're doing and will prepare an RCB with their thumb lightly resting on the B button.

As I have stated in my introductory thread, I cannot tell you much about which characters will have an advantage on this map or not, but here are a couple thoughts on the two that stuck out to me as favourites.

Fox thrives on this map with his all-round stats and good mobility, meaning he can pressure the boiler if he is low-ground and defend it easily if he is high ground. His bulk is also appreciated, meaning that unless he has to wall a Slippy, he'll mostly be able to survive an onslaught from other characters, albeit barely.

Krystal is the other character that stood out and for one reason - her ability. The extra barriers are supremely helpful in both an advantageous and disadvantageous position, allowing her to push and defend with ease and obviously to consolidate her leading position, despite her middling stats.

For these reasons I think that Ap 1v1 is a yellow stage - the characters rely heavily on RNG in the early game to strike lucky and get a boiler spawn whereas the middle and lategame could just turn into a turtlefest as both characters wait for their opponents to make a sloppy mistake. Green is too high because the stage is heavily biased towards the snowballer, and unlike other maps like Simp1 it's very difficult to make a comeback. However, banning it would be wrong. Not only will the stage make interesting and thoughtful games, but also it is not impossible to take a lead yourself because of the spawns of items and characters - you might end up on the boiler after a failed attempt that reduced your enemy to 50% HP.

But all that is only for 1v1. In 2v2 and FFA I believe the map should be green, as the opportunity for comeback is much easier to achieve. In 2v2, have a dedicated tank such as Krystal with barriers or Slippy while Falco sneaks up the higher pathways and jumps down on top of their Peppy and Fox with a BarrierBomb (a little trick where you run at enemies while cooking a grenade then activating your barrier just before it blows). Alternatively, go for all-out damage with a Slippy and Peppey - one charges up a slope from the low ground while the other comes in from above on a floating platform with a full RCB.

FFA is arguably the mode where the control over the boiler is the least important. Controlling the weapons is much more important, so snatching as many weapons as possible in the earlygame is crucial, but survival is more key. Escaping is challenging, as every character will also be making their way to boiler - avoiding a fight is essential at this stage. Then, when you're in a safer position, you can really start hitting hard with all those new weapons you stole.

Phew, that took a while. Typing it all on my ipod too, so my thumbs hurt like hell now. Anyway, I hope this analysis helps.

Never been much of an Ap fan, too much focus in the center.

I vote 1v1 and 2v2 yellow, FFA green.

1v1 seems like it's all about getting the weapons quickly and controling the center. Definently not fun respawing down below and having to pop a barrier just to survive the onslaught that would rain down on you from above.

2v2 I feel like it would be close to the 1v1 situation. If your enemies win the initial confrontation and gain the center and you and your partner spawn on opposite sides, the 2 can team up on one, get a quick kill, and surround the other other guy. I don't think it would happen too much if at all and I'm not sure it's much of an arguement but I feel that I would hate to be the guy who just spawned who has 2 fully stocked up guys comming after him while his partner is on the other side of the map.

FFA is just utter chaos with all the fighting in the center. Getting back after you respawn doesn't seem like too much of a problem with your enemys having to worry about the other guys up there.

I'm not too hardset on either of these since I don't care too much for this stage  .

Zerolink100 wrote:

If your enemies win the initial confrontation and gain the center and you and your partner spawn on opposite sides, the 2 can team up on one, get a quick kill, and surround the other guy.

This is a good point indeed but I believe you're making the assumption that the second character is incapable of movement during the time while the first is being killed. Also, you must remember the invulnerability of characters taking too much damage in one shot - using this logic, a 'quick' kill would have to be executed with Machine Guns. Otherwise, a lot of time would be spent watching the enemy while he us invulnerable. In addition, the first character to get killed can also dodge, or use barriers - this wastes the time of the killing team even morr. During this time the second character has a huge opportunity to make a run for the center and grab himself some weapons. Sure, the enemies will know what's going on but by the time they get back to the boiler the character will have left or gotten a defensive item like a barrier or pod which disencourages an engagement as in 2v2 you always want to fight on your own terms - especially on a map like this.

Another thing you've either omitted or forgotten are the (almost) instant respawns. Character 1 gets ganked quickly with lightning-fast precision by the enemies before they move on to Character 2, who, for the sake of this example, is running quickly towards the center. Character 1 will respawn in one of 4 places on the map - and at least one of these spaces is inside the boiler (I can't remember where each spawn location is exactly). Character 1 spawns on a lower platform and instantly makes his way to the boiler. Although we can safely assume the enemies will make it to the boiler first because of the short delay between death and respawn, Character 2 is already there and preparing a full-charged shot to aim at one, giving Character 1 a chance to make it up and help him defend his new position.

Defensive strategies on this map cannot rely on strength in numbers - otherwise the offensive team would easily split up and force the defense to split too. Your point is a good one but impractical and a team doing this would get punished hard.

ThatLunaticFeline wrote:

Also, you must remember the invulnerability of characters taking too much damage in one shot

I'm aware that you get invincibility for a sec after you take a sum of damage. I think the teamwork between 2 characters can overcome that. If the character is Falc or krys after one RCB hit he's forced to barrier if he wants to get up without risk. Fox can take 2 hits before this so he probably has more of a chance. Slip can tank but he's slower so it would take longer to get up giving what I figure the same end resulting health (one RCB to death). Pep is slow and little health so the barrier pop is necessary, and because he's slow it eats up more barrier health. I see this as the same thing with full Fich and the hallways into the building though there is more room to dodge but there's room for a second person to easily help out his partner.

Because of the weapons on this stage there is plenty of ammo to use to waste the barriers. GGuns tear through it and a double HL or RCB would do a hefty amount as well.

Quote :

During this time the second character has a huge opportunity to make a run for the center and grab himself some weapons.

While true I guess I think it won't work just because I believe that with teamwork and the right stragety, those 2 players can overcome that one individual. Looking at my own experience it completely disproves that statement where when I play with my 2 younger cousins them vs me, most of the time they can't get me damaged while I stall out their barriers and wait for my chances to hit them. They lack stragety and I think if they were to communicate a plan even with me in the room they would tear me down without me getting a point.

Quote :

Another thing you've either omitted or forgotten are the (almost) instant respawns.

I know the respawns are pretty much instant and admit that eventually the respawn times would spread to the point where it wouldn't matter much, but because of that initial control by the first team and using teamwork to take out one at a time they could keep the weapons out of the enemies hands and all they would have to go up against is RCB when making their way back up just makes it seem like less of a threat unless it's pep/slip, and if it's either of those characters I think it would take longer to get the right respawns to nullify the initial team's dominance of the center.

With the Revoleague SFA players mainly following these stage rules and their experience I don't think it would be too hard to see the kind of teamwork that is needed for this stragety.